Man, Do I have A Dilemma...
 

In the past this has not been that much of an issue. I have been able to control it to an extent. But, now it seems like I am busting at the bit to do some things I normally would not.

1) Do I make figures to compete with some of the more "modernized" custom figures that are being made now to specifically gain an advantage or do I use my normal figures with just a few slight altered figures? I can understand gaining an advatage. I thinkk most of us do it to a certain extent, but things appear to be way overboard now-aidays. When is enough enough? Where will it stop?

2) Many coaches these days are not precise with making pivots. Do I pivot several players several times until my pivot becomes a slide? Do I make one massive pivot with ends up being like a move?

I have been able to deal with the above for a while now, but it just reaches a point where you just have to shake your head and make a decision to either join the crowd or continue doing the right thing. Not trying to start anything, but I just had to get this off my chest.

Any feed is welcome.


I think I feel better already.

Thx!

-Adrian-

Adrian
You dont know me and have only heard of you , and from what I have heard you will not join them.

Just do what you do and it is always right to do right.

Just my take

doug

Adrian
 

I cannot believe how bad this has gotten.....(the pivot) I tell the Coach just move the guy because you have moved him anyways........this is a good topic.......I always thought or been told that pivots should be done from the back of the base....yet in many leagues i see coaches pivot using the front of the base which is curious to me since i was taught that pivots take place from the back...so the coach doesn't gain yards on pivots......

interesting post......thmbsp$ thmbsp$ thmbsp$ thmbsp$

This my take on it . If a coach has a problem with pivots you should make him use a marker , put the magnet ref down and have him pivot from there but remember you have to do the same, everyone isn,t perfect. To me you just have to tell the coach to use a marker to cut down confussion. Guys so hype to win they look for any kind of advantage. Its just gotten out of had, this is my thoughts of the matter. Maybe someone should post the correct rule way of a pivot.


peace

MY TAKE
 

Pivots and advanced pivots should always have a marker - other than a finger which in some cases tends to do the electric slide as well as figures!!! - of some kind and should always have a time limit!!!

Dilemmas...
 

I hope this helps a little.

- Don

Integrity and not "Win no matter what"
 

A.Bax..I feel you, I may guilty of this and I have played Coaches who have done this, one in particular, who did plenty of that and some:eek: , threw passes right in the baited area. I knew my safety had him, this cat pivoted (placing him even closer to my safety, by design) and when I pivoted my safet he pushed him back saying he was not that close..gaining 1-2 critical yards to get his wr off the line and to the endzone. Bro, I was vexed and Ifelt like at times people will do what they believe your kindness or their perception that you may not know the rules of a pivot.....to their advantage. Byaself...if every body is doing the same thing right or wrong ...the innovator or the one who, sticks to what works for them..is the honorable one of their craft to themself. what others do if it works for them...it is what it is...but like you often tell me Coach.."Don't pay that no nevermind" Do you your success rate speaks for itself.

AKCthmbsp$

Cool!
 

Thanks for responding Boston21, Morgan, Jasper, Jimbo and Don.

Boston 21
While there is a very good chance I will not succumb to the pressure, I must admit it can be a little overwhelming at times. I wanted to put this out there in an effort to help me better deal with it. I do not like zeroing in on one individual and talk about him behind the scenes, although it’s tempting. Fortunately, or rather, unfortunately enough, there is more than one individual that meets the above criteria. The number of coaches involved in this is starting to increase. Perhaps this is the new way of doing things. If so, I WILL CONFORM. No doubt about it. But, if it’s not, I would like for each league and tournament to address these issues with a no tolerance approach.

Mozeek
Yeah, it has gotten to be really bad. I have noticed some inconsistencies when it comes to pivots. Usually prior to the play starting, it is ok to pivot from the FOB, but after the play starts and the board shuts off, it is not allowed to pivot from the FOB. Rather right or wrong, inconsistent or not, I have adapted to this situation. So when allowed, I will pivot from the FOB. When not allowed, I will not. But, I see your point.

KingATL
This is my take on it. It’s not a problem to inform your fellow coach who has played this game for as long as you, how to perform a pivot. It is, however an issue when you have to do it repeatedly. In addition, it is an issue when the ref’s do not address it. First, the opposing coach should not be responsible for this, but if you do decide to speak up and out about, it should have to be done once. This is the responsibility of the designated ref(s) or if no designated ref, any coach who plays or has played under the rule-set who is watching. One of my pet-peeves is when you have a coach that witnesses these type of things going on and just walks away and talks about it later. This stuff needs to stop. Speak-up and speak-out about it at that time and leave all the behind the scenes talking out of it. That’s not needed when the issue can be resolved on the spot.

Jimbo
You are correct. Even when the finger is used, there still can be a tendency for the occasional “electric slide.”

Don
I know I have been guilty in the past of having the “Ski Jumpers,” but I thing I have evolved. As I said before, I am or used to be guilty of similar creations (on offense only). So, I can understand where some of the guys are coming from, but like I said. It’s not just one or two. It’s starting to become a little overwhelming.

BTW, I likes the pivot stick. Excellent!

The other thing I would like to see is the enforcement of the written rule. If it’s on the books enforce it (height, weight and width requirement). Don’t worry about being viewed in a certain light. You have the written rule on your side. It is the duty for all participants to read and be aware of all rules prior to the start. If they choose not to adhere to certain rules, that’s on them. But, if one chooses to not enforce certain rules, you will notice that more and more coaches will not start to take advantage of the situation and run with it.

Thanks again fellas for reading and your feed-back.

I guess will not succumb to the pressure and I will continue to stay strong.

Like I said, I am not trying to start any trouble. I am just trying to do the Super Bowl Shuffle:rtfl:

Peace and Love!

-Adrian-

AB
 

Dude,

You just do you. Continue to lead by example, regardless of how frustrating this situation may be. There is a reason why you are thought of so highly in this hobby. The suggestions in this post where good ones. Hopefully, those guys you've eluded to will work harder at being "gentlemen" of the hobby and do the right thing.


Don

IT'S BAD ENUF...
 

It's bad enuf you represent the Dallas Starboys, but now you gotta steal my team's song too!?! What's up with that??? :rtfl: :nhnh: ;) I guess I'll just have to BEAR DOWN. ;)

It's no secret that the "Huggy Bears" seem to have come out of nowhere again, but we must ask ourselves BEFORE playing or joining a leaugue or Tourney, "What are the UNWRITTEN rules???" That would have eleviated all of the surprise. But, you will ALWAYS get those that try to squeeze through the loopholes. It's up to the "officials" to enforce it. What happens when the "officials" are the ones doing the loopholing themselves? Hmmmm....:confused:

Thankfully, they aren't allowed in the DSEFL! But even if they were, which I don't care if they are, just tell me before I build my SAINTS so I can build me some Starsky's and Hutch's to bust 'em up!!!

In the CNYEFL...
 

all pivots are done from the back of base with a pencil or a pen - no hands touching.
rfr$

Pivot Sticks?
 

Does anyone know who sells them? In need of a few......Anyone anyone......

The way my nephew and I play is a player can be pivoted no further than the point of the base furthest up field. In the pic you can see a white dot wich indicates the furthest point of the defenders base. That player can be pivoted but no part of that players base can go beyond that white dot. We use a magnet to spot.

Example #2 and result. The defnder could not have any part of his base past the 25 yard line.

AB...
 

I've known you for a while now and for you to bring this up it must be an issue. You are the most mild mannered EFLer in all of minature football. All I have to say is "if you quit winning all of the championships and save some for us little guys, we wouldn't have to cheat ya"! haha! Just kidding my friend. It's a shame that it has gotten to this point. Just continue doing the right things. I suggest helping your opponent understand that you realize what is going on during the course of play instead of shaking your head at it. He may get defensive at first but it'll shed some light on the situation for him as he may become more aware of what he is doing and it is more likely to stop. No one likes to be called a cheater so I'm sure that this tactic may very well work.

MAYBE...
 

Hmmm...Maybe the guy that posted the pictures??? Just a thought.

Dilemma
 

I've vented some pet peeves here before and I definitely see inconsistency in the way guys pivot in the hobby (I believe it should always be done with back of base and using a marker if crucial).

One pet peeve showed itself again at this year's Buzzfest. A rusher gets right into the face of the QB. The coach makes a good stop of the switch and barely stops it before the guy tackles him. The coach then marks where the QB's base is and sets his TTQB to be touching the very edge of one corner of that space. In essence he nullifies the pressure that your guy put on and the ability of that defensive rusher to affect the throw by forcing you to lean your QB to the side, etc.

The coach was doing nothing wrong or illegal, but I found it more fun when I was able to watch guys like Klingbeil do a sideways pass by tilting his TTQB sideways and then having to account for the angle, etc.

Great......
 

Ab

What's up homes! There are about 3 more I could add to your list but I'm not in my playing state right now and just don't want to go down that path. I will say this, EF/MF has and will continue to evolve. You HAVE to keep up with the figures to level the playing fields. There are figures that can totally take base play out the picture just by lifting the figure which would lift the front of the base. In a world where we have TOO many rules there is one rule where you have to really make sure you have it down and that's the limitation on custom figures. I.E Figures/arms too long, too wide, or figures feet off the platform etc. If there is a way to get an advantage someone is going to use it. Know your rules and do not allow yourself to be cheated.

Don,

I love the piviot sticks. That is a players box MUST! Excellent. I will have one of those whenever I get back to playing this game.

Peace.

Hhmmmmmm
 

Not sure what an advanced pivot is but shouldn't a true pivot be on the axis (center) of the base, not from the front or back?

My view
 

I am a terrible pivot person. Awful. Couple that with my overall team speed and it ********es people off. Because of this I know that sometimes people get upset with me. I understand. But having said that people do the same thing to me on purpose but because I am such a terrible pivot person/spotter, I don't argue what they do. Most times it really doesn't matter because they still don't catch my guy, which really ********es them off further.

Whenever there is a dispute I tell them to place the man themselves. In most cases, that half yard doesn't matter. Once in a while it does. There are controls for this and I have worked hard on the proper discipline to keep my fat fingers from ruining the game.

As for the figures AB, I played a high level game where there were customs grabbing my man 3-4 yards left or right. It was ridiculous! I normally use stock with slight variations like the receivers arms up or the OL arms down, or move a figure slightly forward or back. Nothing more. I win, just like you a lot. My true belief is "over customizing" is way worse than a bad pivot because you have to deal with that every play instead of situational circumstances. It's pretty pathetic if you ask me, and not a fair reflection of your skill or willingness to get better.

Just my thoughts.

JIMBO
 

:rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: lffng$ lffng$ lffng$ lffng$ lffng$ lffng$ lffng$
I had Brain Freeze......

CENTER AXIS
 

In theory that is how it should be done. But, because the bases aren't square, it doesn't hold true in application. Here's why:

If a defender was parallel to the LOS and was "spun" on his center axis to face up/downfield (perpendicular to the LOS), he would actually gain/lose yardage/distance to/from the ball carrier.

Pivot sticks or 2 Refs to box the player in on the 2 forward most edges is the fairest way to go. I am actually doing 2 Pivot Refs which I hope will make multiple pivots A LOT easier! Stay tuned.

good one AB
 

thmbsp$ thmbsp$ good one guys....

AB, on the custom figures part - some of the customs are designed to just "look good" and there are others that are "functional" and then you have the "should not be allowed" brand of figures.

Everyone's opinion of each will differ, but the fact that latter of the 3 will be what is talked about more. You have had some of those on your teams in the past and have been "called out" for some of those poses. No big deal. I am sure at one time or anopther we all have had at least one that was "questionable".

I use mostly stock players on my teams because of all the travel and different styles I play. this makes my teams legal for most any place. But now that we (MF family as a whole) are moving more into the future with players that can be almost in any position, staying with the standards is no longer as much fun.

Pivots on the otherhand as most have already stated can be different from one coach to the other.
when you get a pivot named after you does that mean that you are doing it right or doing it wrong??

pivot box would be nice if all could use it. I would even go as far as to use that for your TTQB/TDQ so that a pass rusher DOES make it a little tough to pass when he is in your face.


this has been a good post for gaining some understanding of one aspect of the game that will forever be apart of it... and getting ALL to use the same approach is wonderful.

k-lo

QB SLIDE
 

Tom and K-Lo: I agree that the front edge (or closest edge to defender) of the TTQB should be placed right back where the other QB's front edge of the base was and then attempt the base from there. If you want/need more space, then turn the set off faster!!!

Thanks Again Guys!
 

Grandmaster
I think you're right. Giving me some of my own medicine, Ha? Gee Thx!

JIMBO
Hmmm… Universal Rules. Very interesting concept. While I support the majority of the various rule-sets that exists today, I am strongly in favor of certain universal rules that are the SAME no matter what rule-set you play. For instance, all regular “pivots” are performed the same. All “advanced pivots” are performed the same. If someone comes up with a new way to pivot, no matter what rule-set you play under, it will be the same. Now every league does not have to allow all of the different types of pivots, but for whatever type of pivot you allow, it should be the same no matter what. Any variation of a pivot deserves it’s own name. Another example is FOB versus ABC. While some say any portion of the defender’s front portion of the base constitutes a tackle, others may say that it has to be at least within the front corners of the base to be considered a tackle. At least in my neck of the woods, the later has been termed Aggressive FOB. I think I have to give credit to my man, Charlie Murphy, on that one. Oops, I mean Dale “Running Game” Carter.

Mr. Robertson
I do understand where you are coming from with the approach you’ve suggested. The fact is that I’ve tried it already and it’s gotten old. Please don’t get me wrong. I love teaching the newbies, but the veterans are killing me softly. I also understand that for some, it’s unintentional, but I’ve concluded that other’s either just don’t care or they are trying to gain an advantage. The other thing is that, for me, it interrupts the natural ebon flow of the game. Especially when you encounter someone that becomes defensive and responds negatively. When you’re in a zone, you don’t need this type of interruption. When you are enjoying the game and messing with your opponent at the same time, it becomes annoying. I believe that once you get to certain levels of competition, rules 101 should not be an issue, especially the more common rules.

Tom
I agree with you. I have several pet peeves about this game as well. There are many inconsistencies throughout the various rule-sets that exists. Although I may like some rule-sets more than others, no rule-set I have played under is exempt from inconsistencies. NONE!!!

Jamel
Ditto. As stated before I have several pet peeves myself, but I decided to speak on these two as a test to help me with my stress levels. Also, I hope it helps the hobby as well in some way. As for altered figures, I love the defensive figures that jack you up, but it only works against certain figures. And you’re right, it’s about getting an advantage and things will continue to evolve. After all, that’s what happens in the real world and real live sports. But ********, when do you say enough is enough and enforce the rules on the books. Like I’ve already stated, if this is the new acceptable way, I WILL CONFORM. I just do not want to put forth the effort only to find out that things will change back to how things were a year or two years ago.

Sweetka
Sorry dude, I guess you are one of the people guilty of the electric slide. Since you put it out there, what do you recommend as a solution to this type of thing? What would you recommend that would serve as an incentive for the electric sliders to stop? As for placing a man where it should be and it not really making a difference, I guess that’s your experience. Now, based on my experience and observations, I would have to respectfully disagree. Besides affecting the momentum, the way I look at it is that it can make a world of difference. Also, sometime it's difficult to remember exactly where the figure was priro to the multiple pivots which ends up in a slide or move. It's just crazy to me, dude. It also makes a difference in another aspect as well. Just like one miscalculation in a pivot angle, it has the potential to cost you to give up a big play or the game. As they say in the real game of football… football is a game of inches. I guess the translation for us is that MF/EF/BB, ect… is a game of millimeters (not sure if there is a more appropriate form of measurement), but you get my point. Based on this, these minor discrepancies can and have cost big plays and games. Just think of a pivot that ends up in a slide or move that puts a player in a spot to catch that extra strong vibration which helps to propel him towards the intended target to make a tackle whereas he would have missed that tackle if it were not for the grossly exaggerated advancement in the pivot. This also works on the opposite side of the ball as well. Sometimes these things happen and we do not notice the affects. I know this can be seen as being technical, but hell, it is what it is and it’s quite clear and obvious to me the significant change in outcomes of plays and games this issue can cause.

Thanks again fellas for reading and for your responses. Sometimes a brotha just needs to vent.

Until next time....

Peace Love and Hairgrease!!!

-Adrian-

AB
 

Adrian,

Respectfully submitted.

The first thing you have to do is understand that you are doing this. Most people mark really close but your opponent wants to make sure that mmillimeter is addressed. I particularly joined the shootout format because if I could correct deficiencies at high speed then it should not be a problem in the future. With the help and support of Norbert, Simmie, Jimmie, Steve, and Greg I have been working towards a positive end to my situation. I specifically named these people because they understand that I am not trying to cheat to get an edge, it's just something I need to work on without all the haterade. AB, you beat somebody 35-7, 28-6, and that's all you hear about is one missed pivot, or your safety being up too close on a play, then it taints your win.

Simmie-Recognized that I didn't have nothing tacky on my quarterback. As he watched me pass he noticed that the quarterback slid when I pulled the arm back to throw. I simply did not end where I began. Moreover, my passing stats, 1 for 10 with 1 int against Greg (lost-6-0), 6 for 24 against Nobert (got lucky and won that game). I added the tape, good tape, placed the quarterback inside a box, and promptly hit 70% of my passes. The fact is that some people would have rather see me slide because it threw off my passing. Not these guys. I was also rushing because my misconception was that time was my enemy, not targeting. I consider this problem resolved because I do not pass without the approval of placement by my opponent/referee. Hatas' are always going to use this as an excuse for losing, you however have a greater responsibility in addressing it. I'll touch up on that aspect later in the post.

Jimmie, Norbert, Greg-Be in my **********! Thanks guys. thmbsp$ Norbert noticed because I rush so much that with the magnet or dial adjustment players I would lift them before replacing them with the man then come back slightly off. What Norbert and Greg would do was when I picked my man up they would put their fingers down on the spot so if I felt I was getting a bad spot then I would leave the man down until he is replaced. Keep in mind these are my opponents and sometimes you have to trust them to make everyone comfortable. So my recommendations are:

1. Get the support of people you trust, not haters, to help you get better.
2. Do not pick anyone up without sliding someone in his place.
3. Have a universal method for everyone to turn their men. It's not just the person you accuse. Again many people do it subconscientously, including you. Just because some people convey the attitude of close enough does not necessarily mean that it is being done correctly.
4. Institude a pass box for everyone, again universal, to insure that your eyes are not deceiving you.

Who says the accuser is always correct? What's unnerving and stressful for you is that you want to be such a good sport that you are actually enabling people to do the wrong thing by not addressing it immediately. It's bad because you are building stress, which you obviously don't need, then dealing with the problem in a tense manner. That is not good for both sender and receiver from a communitictive perspective. Moreover, I never respected anyone who would wait until they got their ********** kicked then say something after the game. It sounds more like someone crying because they can't accept losing rather than someone constructively trying to address an issue.

I tell you I played a guy one time who virtually stacked his men, shot gaps, cheated on passes, and pivoted five yards over, not a yard or millimeter, five yards over. During this same game I placed the ball where they wanted me to each time. I still won big and was still accused of cheating.

So which one are you? The constructive one or the after game hata? Now AB, I know you are not the aftergame Hata', but if you do not address these issues immediately and take action to correct it, then you are part of the problem and not the solution.

This matter for some, specifically you, is a microcosm of a bigger concern for me as it relates to how you handled the matter. Specifically, the tension and stress is unwarranted and becomes inter-directed due to your procrastination in addressing issues. Buddy, friend, this is more a life issue for you because the behavior translates to other areas such as job, home, etc. This is a hobby. That holding stuff inside until the dam burst is called stress. It kills people through strokes and heart attacks. Get that stuff out right away. You owe it to yourself.

Hope this helps!

Sweetka,

Respectfully accepted.

Please do not misunderstand my point. I usually do not post because of some of the things you mentioned.

First,
I know that I am not perfect (and no one else is for that matter). Please do not get it twisted. I am speaking of the coaches that grossly exaggerate the pivot (weather intentionally or unintentionally). Something should be done to stop or significantly reduce the frequent occurrences especially when rules are on the books to deal with this stuff. Plain and simple.

Second,
It’s not just about winning or losing for me. Please understand, even for me, winning a game 35 – 7 will not necessary make me happy. This could be one of the most horrible games for me if I have to endure these type of things during a game. Also, one of my most enjoyable games was a few years ago against Tom Johnson in a play-off game. He convincingly crushed me, but I had fun during that whole entire game.

Third,
I just needed to vent. It has nothing to do with one or a series of games I’ve lost due to this stuff. It’s more of a cumulative effect of experiences and observations. Anyone that knows me well enough will tell you that I am not one to rush to judgment. So, this is why I have chosen to speak on it now. I never want to jump the gun. Please forgive me for not shooting from the hip, as they say. It’s just not me. I am trying a new approach now to communicate my feelings and thoughts. My goal is to improve on being a little more proactive and less reactive. I hope I do not alienate anyone, as a result. But, hey, whatever happens as a result will just have to happen.

Fourth,
I was completely unaware of any grossly exaggerated pivots on my behalf. This is completely new to me. Again, this is line with what I mentioned before. Things that happen during the game and not rectified at that time by the opposing coach, referee or coaches witnessing the infraction. Forget the behind the scenes stuff, resolve it at that time. I would appreciate any coach sharing with me what I am doing wrong, either during the game or immediately afterwards. I welcome this at all times. It’s not healthy for the community at-large to negatively talk about this type of stuff behind the scenes. Approach the source directly, in a respectful manner I might add, right away. Now that would be constructive criticism for you.

Lastly,
Thanks so much for the introspection you’ve provided to me of myself. I appreciates it! I needed this and I am thankful that it came from you as I probably would have been suspicious of it coming from certain others. I definitely will take what you have said about me into account. Thanks for tearing me a new azzhole. Sometimes we need that every now and then.

Honestly, I really appreciate it.


-Adrian-

if this could be our focus for 2010
 

You make a great point here AB.

We all could put in some work in this area on a regular. Sometime during the battle, you are going to get those calls that make cringe and want to go off, and sometime we do. A little more openness towards each other and further sharpening of the enforcement of the written rules we can move past this sticking point.

mabye a Poll is needed to decide which direction we should move in......

Nothing ventured, nothing gained!
 

Young man, just understand that my writing style can be a little too direct, however my concerns where you are concerned run way beyond this hobby. Understand that you are a rare breed in this hobby, a winner both on and off the field. Best of the best!

The information contained in my responses was based on my own personal experience and observations. I have never seen you run more than three plays in my life.

By reflecting on the scores it was showing you an exaggerated example of how things could spiral out of control. I'm not moving guys five yards, maybe one, but the whole gist of the conversation was the hindrances to moving forward and how both parties play a significant role in it's successes or failures.

I have no issue with letting people know where I stand. When you do what I do for 25 years, and know that when you leave your legacy won't, it's not very hard to put things where they should be. Unfortunately I have reached a point where fun is so much at a premium that I would rather play in China if I would have more fun.

My observations were an attempt to provide you with a looking glass perspective as an inducement to act for the betterment of all.

AB, you are my friend. My concerns probably made me a little rambly and I sincerly apologize for any misconceptions. I was really trying to be helpful to everyone as I am one of the few people in this hobby who will admit to making these mistakes.

Peace, and no offense.

Cool!
 

After reading your last reply, I re-read your previous reply from earlier and I follow a little differently now. Sometimes the written text can be misinterpeted. Thanks for clearing things up for a brotha.

Also thanks again for that last paragraph. That was just perferct.

Eventually I will find a more constructive way to resolve certain issues. Unitl then, I just had to put this out there.

No offense taken. It's all good.

-Adrian-